linux.com interview with Eazel UI guys

Replies:

  • None.

Parents:

  • None.
It's great that there are finally people who know and care about
usability working on the Linux desktop. I can't wait to see the
improvements that will be made in the next year or two.

http://www.linux.com/news/article_archive.phtml

> Eazel: Strangely Optimistic
> Emmett Plant
>
> Last week I got to sit down on IRC with Arlo Rose, John Sullivan
> and Greg Corrin from Eazel.  These guys are out to change the way
> you think about the Linux desktop, and they're gaining speed.  A
> new preview release of Nautilus is right around the corner, with
> some neat features and surprises you might not have expected.

-> http://www.linux.com/news/articles.phtml?sid=93&aid=11087

> Eazel: Strangely Optimistic
> by Emmett Plant - Mon, 23 Oct 2000 12:53:59am
>
> John Sullivan: Ah, you must be Greg Corrin, eh?
> Greg Corrin: yup
> John Sullivan: Greg can shush me and Arlo when we start
>     giving away corporate secrets
> Greg Corrin: sullivan: there are no corporate secrets
> Arlo Rose: 'morning!
> John Sullivan: Hi Arlo
> Arlo Rose: Hey John. :-)
>
> Linux.com: Hey, Arlo, what's your full name and title?
>
> Arlo Rose: Arlo Rose, Pixel Hacker (Nautilus UI Lead)
>
> Linux.com: Arlo: Tell me about the regular day at Eazel for you.
>
>
> John Sullivan: I wonder if the silence means that Arlo has no
>     regular days at Eazel...
> Arlo Rose: Well, it's usually me walking into the office, with my
>     heart set on finishing up a specific task I've wanted to get done
>     for weeks, and ends up with me having to help an engineer
>     through some design issue that I think will only take a few
>     minutes, but ends up taking all day. :-)
>
> Linux.com: What's the latest chunk of implementation hell? :)
>
> John Sullivan: We're nearing a preview release
> John Sullivan: We want it to look and act good for customers
> John Sullivan: So the latest implementation hell is all the little
>     details for this release
> Arlo Rose: Oh dear... .the latest chunk is the visual and usable
>     state of our Services component.
>
> Linux.com: Tell me about all about the preview release! :)
>
> John Sullivan: that's rather a lot...
> John Sullivan: We've had one preview release so far
> John Sullivan: This will be the second
> John Sullivan: It's sorta like a "beta" release
> John Sullivan: Almost all the features are in there and should
>     be working
> Arlo Rose: This release will focus on getting our interested
>     customers a chance to play with Services.
> John Sullivan: But we still have a lot of polishing between this
>     release and the final one
> John Sullivan: like Arlo said, getting the Services working is
>     an important component of this release
> John Sullivan: The previous preview release did not have
>     Services at all
>
> Linux.com: What services will be in this release?
>
> Arlo Rose: We're really excited about letting people see this
>     stufff, and right now, I'm thrashing to make sure it looks and
>     works as good as it can.
> John Sullivan: There's a software installer...
> Arlo Rose: Our online storage, a catalog of software to install...
>
> John Sullivan: a web storage area (we call it the "vault")
>
> Linux.com: What's the Vault all about?
>
> Arlo Rose: .It's not called the vault to the outside world. :-)
> John Sullivan: Oh, it used to be.
> John Sullivan: It's a place where each user can have a
>     shared web storage area
> John Sullivan: the UI is just the normal file-browsing UI
> Arlo Rose: The "Vault" (Eazel Online Strorage) is a place
>     where users can store data offline.
> Arlo Rose: But what's cool about it is that we've integrated it
>     into Nautilus, so you can see it via the browser.
>
> Linux.com: So if I want to back up my mp3's, I can just use the
>     service and store them in the vault?
>
> John Sullivan: sure
> Arlo Rose: But also via a web page if you're on a Mac, in
>     another city.
> Arlo Rose: yup
>
> Linux.com: How much will it cost me to back up my insanely
>     huge collection?
>
> Greg Corrin: 25MB free, but all of our sevices are free for a
>     trial
> Greg Corrin: : )
>
> Linux.com: Okay. Have you guys done any user-testing yet,
>     and if so, how is it going?
>
> John Sullivan: we've done a little so far, but only a little
> John Sullivan: I'll let Arlo fill you in on more details
> Arlo Rose: Yeah, I've started a mini test lab over here... It's
>     going really well, and we've gotten back some important data.
> Arlo Rose: Our first round was all about basics...
> Arlo Rose: File browsing...
> Arlo Rose: Copying...
> Arlo Rose: Moving..
> Arlo Rose: Etc.
> Arlo Rose: And we made some interesting discoveries
> Arlo Rose: And tuned our software to make sure that what we
>     were doing fit with what our "novice" users were expecting.
>
> Linux.com: Tell!
>
> Arlo Rose: Well, we went into this project thinking that novice
>     users would grasp a single click to open items... thinking about
>     the file browser as a cousin to a web browser...
> Arlo Rose: And one of the *first* things that was obviously
>     clear was that we were wrong. :-)
> John Sullivan: We had implemented both single-click and
>     double-click, as a preference.
> Arlo Rose: I've never seen a more sad and angry group of
>     people trying to use a computer in my life.
> John Sullivan: But the default was single-click.
> John Sullivan: Now, the default is double-click. : )
> Arlo Rose: That's just a tiny example...
> Arlo Rose: User testing also unearths things you never
>     expect...
> Arlo Rose: Like users trying to use the location bar to change
>     a file name.
> Arlo Rose: Or our side bar...
> Arlo Rose: Looking at the tree view, and thinking that their
>     home directory is the root of the drive.
> Arlo Rose: One I'm still worried about is the single window
>     setting.
> Arlo Rose: No one got that.
>
> Linux.com: What happened?
>
> John Sullivan: That's another preference, using a single
>     window when navigating a la web browsing, vs. using a
>     window for each directory
> Arlo Rose: I tried to get people to copy files from one folder to
>     another, and the result was a disaster... Advanced and Novice
>     users alike didn't know what to do.
> John Sullivan: Users couldn't figure out *how* to open multiple
>     windows (though there are ways, even in single-window
>     mode)
> John Sullivan: Without opening multiple windows, you can't
>     drag a file from one directory to another
> Arlo Rose: I fully expected the "emergency action" to be to
>     drag the file to the desktop, and then back into the destination
>     window.
> Arlo Rose: But they never even did that.
> John Sullivan: An interesting (and well-known) UI lesson this
>     emphasizes is:
> John Sullivan: Preferences are fine, but the default setting is
>     incredibly important
> John Sullivan: Many, many people never change the
>     preferences
> Arlo Rose: Yup, and this is what the first study was all about...
>     "Default Settings"
> John Sullivan: So if you don't have the defaults right, you're
>     really ruining peoples' experiences
> John Sullivan: The Linux community is very enamored of
>     preferences
> Arlo Rose: I can think of a few apps I use where they really
>     need to get their default settings correct. :-)
> John Sullivan: And to some extent, many people in the
>     community don't realize how important this basic UI lesson is.
> John Sullivan: Many Linux apps have a zillion preferences.
>
> Linux.com: Will Nautilus?
>
> John Sullivan: And you have to be an expert at that app to
>     understand which combinations make sense.
> Arlo Rose: And they don't have the best set by default.
> John Sullivan: We want to strike the right balance.
> John Sullivan: Of customizability vs. usability.
> Arlo Rose: (best, meaning most simple for a basic user)
> John Sullivan: They aren't always on the same side.
> John Sullivan: Nautilus will have quite a few preferences, but
>     hopefully we will minimize or eliminate preferences that the
>     user can "get wrong"
> Arlo Rose: Sometimes you can go overboard... and make it
>     *too* customizable...
> John Sullivan: And hopefully we will have the defaults set
>     well.
>
> Linux.com: Where did you guys work before you were at Eazel?
>
>
> John Sullivan: I've been at a few companies
> John Sullivan: My first computer job was at Apple, where I did
>     UI design
> John Sullivan: then I went to General Magic, where I did UI
>     design and programming
> John Sullivan: then I went to Electric Communities, where I did
>     UI design and programming
> John Sullivan: then I consulted for awhile with WebTV, then
>     on to Eazel
>
> Linux.com: You worked with Andy at General Magic?
>
> John Sullivan: yes
>
> Linux.com: And Susan?
>
> John Sullivan: yes, Susan and Andy and a few more
>
> Linux.com: What did you work on at Apple?
>
> John Sullivan: Darin Adler and Pavel Cisler, who are at Eazel,
>     were both at General Magic
> John Sullivan: System 7 for the most part
> John Sullivan: But lots of odds and ends too
> John Sullivan: At the time, System 7 was the biggest software
>     project in Apple's history
> John Sullivan: Darin Adler, who is technical lead for Eazel,
>     had that same role for System 7, by the way
>
> Linux.com: How about you, Arlo?
>
> Arlo Rose: I've been a few places, and have done consulting
>     for some biggies.
> Arlo Rose: I started off working on a museum exhibit at the
>     Tech in San Jose... from there, went into advertising for two
>     years...
> Arlo Rose: My first [official] tech job was designing sofware
>     projects for Scholastic.
> Arlo Rose: I did all the design and UI work, and had a team of
>     engineers to make it all work. :-)
> Arlo Rose: From there I did consulting for companies like Wells
>     Fargo, Pepsi, Sony, and some other biggies, but got sick of
>     the consulting thing and went to work at Apple.
> Arlo Rose: At Apple I was the HI (aka UI) lead for the
>     Appearance Manager and the High Level Toolbox for Copland
>     (Apple's largest software project that dwarfed System 7 ;-)
> John Sullivan: Arlo: yeah, but System 7 shipped.
> Arlo Rose: and then made the transition out of Copland to the
>     realworld, and retrofitted it all to work on what was at the time
>     the System 7 base.
> Arlo Rose: And it became what shipped as Mac OS 8.
> Arlo Rose: I too did a ton of other little things at Apple (and
>     some big ones)
> Arlo Rose: I worked with a team to create this really cool
>     alternate OS that was for extreme novice users... we designed
>     hardware and software as one... it was really amazing (but I
>     probably can't talk about it in detail).
> Arlo Rose: I also worked with Hollywood studios to put Mac
>     systems in movies.
> Arlo Rose: I did a lot of Movie DOS. :-)
> Arlo Rose: The two fun ones for me were the Saint and Batman
>     & Robin.
>
> Linux.com: Do you guys like it at Eazel?
>
> John Sullivan: Overall, it's a lot of fun at Eazel.
> Arlo Rose: Yeah, I like it here a lot.
>
> Linux.com: What's cool about it?
>
> John Sullivan: Of course there are pros and cons in the open
>     source community
> Arlo Rose: There are ups and downs but that happens
>     anywhere.
> John Sullivan: Open source is a great idea
> John Sullivan: It's fun to work with people scattered around the
>     world, in almost real time
> John Sullivan: (sometimes in real time)
> Arlo Rose: The free backrubs and champagne on Tuesdays
>     and Fridays.
> Arlo Rose: (kidding)
> John Sullivan: It's exciting that the stuff you create gets seen
>     and used by some people immediately
> John Sullivan: This provides a great opportunity for feedback
>     that you don't have in normal commercial software
> Arlo Rose: It's also really scary and frustrating.
> Arlo Rose: I'm not used to have people see my works in
>     progress.
> John Sullivan: The state of the art for UI in the free software
>     community is abysmally low compared to Apple (e.g.)
> John Sullivan: This can be frustrating.
> John Sullivan: On the other hand, there's nowhere to go but
>     up. : )
> Arlo Rose: true.
> Arlo Rose: But it can be a challenge getting around some
>     oddities that make doing good UI hard.
> Arlo Rose: layout issues.
>
> Linux.com: What sucks about working at Eazel?
>
> John Sullivan: Nothing sucks really badly.
> John Sullivan: One thing that isn't as good as I had hoped:
> Arlo Rose: Overall it's not an evil place. :-)
> John Sullivan: I had hoped that there would be a lot less
>     politics working on open source software.
> John Sullivan: But I don't think there is less politics, just
>     different
> Arlo Rose: Yeah, I had the same feelings... I thought that so
>     long as you contributed, there wasn't friction, and people were
>     open to your changes...
> Arlo Rose: But that wasn't the case.
> John Sullivan: There is plenty of friction all around
> John Sullivan: And it's frustrating to be using software that has
>     extremely, shall we say, improvable UI
> John Sullivan: in the course of my daily work
> John Sullivan: If I had infinite time I could try to make all the
>     pieces of Linux software better as I discovered problems
> John Sullivan: But there is never very much time for random
>     improvements outside of my main task
> John Sullivan: that being to make Nautilus good.
>
> Linux.com: Is Nautilus going to dominate the Linux desktop?
>
> John Sullivan: who knows?
> John Sullivan: I think that it will be better in many ways than
>     any other Linux desktop programs I've seen.
> John Sullivan: But there are always tradeoffs.
> John Sullivan: And being better does not necessarily lead to
>     dominance.
>
> Linux.com: If it did, I'd own a Mac.
>
> Arlo Rose: We certainly want it to... but it will be up to our
>     users to decide... over time... if we're the new standard.
> John Sullivan: Windows did not achieve dominance by being
>     better, IMHO
> Arlo Rose: One of the perks about working here is Andy's
>     enthusiasm about... well... everything. :-)
>
> Linux.com: Andy is a white ball of healing light. :)
>
> Arlo Rose: Do you want to know anything more about
>     usability, design language, etc?
> John Sullivan: One of the worst things about Linux is the state
>     of its overall UI.
> John Sullivan: This has got to dramatically improve before it
>     will achieve really widespread acceptance, I think.
> Arlo Rose: And along with that...
> John Sullivan: Many people are aware of this, not just at
>     Eazel.
> Arlo Rose: (let me digress for a sec)
> John Sullivan: But it is one of Eazel's primary missions to
>     improve the overall UI.
> Arlo Rose: My primary passion is making things usable... but I
>     also have a low threshold for things that look bad.
> Arlo Rose: And Linux, IMHO, looks bad.
> Arlo Rose: So not only do we have to make it all work really
>     well...
> Arlo Rose: which I love doing...
> Arlo Rose: we also have to make sure when people see it
>     running... before they even use it... they're already sold.
> Arlo Rose: I want people to line up to use Nautilus (and
>     anything else we do) based on screenshots... because that's
>     what they see first
> Arlo Rose: So sadly, my time here has been more about pixel
>     tweaking than doing UI work...
> Arlo Rose: but that will change as the standards are raised.
> Arlo Rose: (visual standards)
>
> Linux.com: Do you think that Nautilus will be able to take on
>     the MacOS in time?
>
> Arlo Rose: in time... yes... but it won't be *just* because of
>     Nautilus...
> John Sullivan: There's a looooot of work to be done before
>     Linux is overall comparable with the Macintosh.
> Arlo Rose: it will be because Adobe, and MacroMedia, and
>     others put their weight behind the Linux platform
> John Sullivan: But Linux does have its advantages too.
> John Sullivan: Probably the user base between the two
>     systems will have rather different centers for some time to
>     come.
> John Sullivan: But you never know what might be the case in
>     a few years.
> Arlo Rose: But the trick will be to get the people at CompUSA
>     into buying a Linux system becuse it browses the web
>     cheaper, and easier.
> Arlo Rose: And looks better, and works better.
> Arlo Rose: I think Eazel is the first Open Source company to
>     ever have a UI testing lab.
> Arlo Rose: So we're proud of that too.
> Arlo Rose: And we put what our users want ahead of what our
>     engineers and marketing department want. ;-)
> John Sullivan: By the way, most of what I said about
>     Macintosh above applies to Windows as well.
> John Sullivan: I am definitely a Mac snob.
> Arlo Rose: As am I.
> John Sullivan: But Windows is way ahead of Linux in many
>     areas as well.
> John Sullivan: Linux is definitely changing faster, though.
> Arlo Rose: Givin a choice of Windows or Linux, I'd take Linux
>     in a second...
>
> Linux.com: I can't believe you people are speaking objectively
>     about Linux. They'll come after you with pitchforks and torches.
>
> John Sullivan: probably
> John Sullivan: that's OK
> John Sullivan: Without viewing it objectively, you can't really
>     improve it significantly
>
> Linux.com: Meanwhile, I'm sitting here running Enlightenment
>     and dying to play Spaceward Ho!.
>
> Arlo Rose: That's something we hope to teach the rest of the
>     Linux/GNOME community...
> John Sullivan: Ah, Spaceward Ho!
> John Sullivan: I haven't been able to give up my Mac entirely
>     for my daily work.
> John Sullivan: I still read email on my Mac
> Arlo Rose: how to design your software objectively, and take
>     user requests to heart... do some user testing, and understand
>     who your users are.
> John Sullivan: Because the email programs I've seen on Linux
>     are terrible.
> John Sullivan: I hope that changes with Evolution
>
> Linux.com: You're in the Linux space. Your users are the guy
>     on the Simpsons that runs the comic book shop.
>
> Arlo Rose: heh
> John Sullivan: Not forever, though, or Linux is doomed
> John Sullivan: That guy will always be a Linux user, probably
>     (hopefully), but he will be joined by a lot of very different types
>     too
> Arlo Rose: we hope. :-)
> John Sullivan: One of the challenges of this space is trying to
>     keep the hard-line hackers happy while simultaneously
>     making more "ordinary users" happy too.
> Arlo Rose: So to sum up, we not only want to make Nautilus
>     usable, but we also want to educate the rest of the community
>     about what's good UI/HI and Visual design
>
> Linux.com: I think that's a noble goal.
>
> Arlo Rose: and that's what UI at Eazel is all about.
>
> Linux.com: If you can just scream loud enough through the
>     endless whining, they might get it.
>
> Arlo Rose: (welcome to my world)
>
> Linux.com: And Nothing Screams Louder Than Code.
>
> John Sullivan: It's hard to distinguish screaming from whining
>     sometimes.
> John Sullivan: Except, like you say, with results
> Arlo Rose: Yeah, it's tough... but we're strangely optimistic.

--
Gerald Oskoboiny <[email protected]>
http://impressive.net/people/gerald/

HURL: fogo mailing list archives, maintained by Gerald Oskoboiny